HomeMy WebLinkAboutVerbatim Minutes (8) STATE OF CONNECTICUT
ss. SOUTH WINDSOR
COUNTY OF HARTFORD
Date :
hereby certify that I typed an
accurate transcript of the �,7ctjc/ 3, 9 9CR meeting of
the Inland Wetlands Agency/Conservation Commission re : Application
## 9(,-31,P, �i aroz-57/"� , that a true copy of said
transcript is attached hereto, and it is accurate to the best of my
knowledge, ability and belief and further certify that I have this date
filed said transcript in the office of the Inland Wetlands
Agency/Conservation Commission.
a / qR
Date
STATE OF CONNECTICUT
ss . SOUTH WINDSOR
COUNTY OF HARTFORD
Personally appeared-ho-w ki P • 'SaYU sue` signer and sealer of
the foregoing instrument and acknowledged the same to be her free act
and deed, before me.
Notary Public
My Commission Expires
APPLICATION 96-31W
COLLINS CROSSING
July 3, 1996
This is just a general overview of what we call Collins Crossing,the overall development which
t,'�)6.,a would be the subject of the conservation plan application for a whole thing. Which I think
` you've scheduled for maybe the seventeenth?
Yep.
But,just so you have the general idea of the overall development, as opposed to just what we're
here for tonight though,the watercourse crossing.
Okay.
(Papers shuffling)
Okay,I'm Peter DeMallie and also with me is my partner Bob Arsenault, from Design
Professionals. Bob's a professional engineer and I'm planner. And we've been retained by
Collins Crossing LLC,the applicant and owner of the property to design what we call overall
Collins Crossing. What we're here before you tonight is just the culvert crossing,anything that
effects the wetlands here. The balance of the site is the subject of the conservation plan
application,which is a separate application for four projects. There's a senior residence
development similar to Porter's Share, Wyndemere Court, if you're familiar with those. There's
a ten lot single family subdivision at the top of the hill. Here being Nevers Road,and here's
Sullivan Avenue,and then two small single-family senior residence developments which are
detached stand-alone single-family homes,restricted to people who meet the definition of
seniors. And that's the first such project being proposed in the zoning regulations,that allow
that type of development. So we're proposing a new street going through,that's why we need to
have the wetlands crossing the only access into the property from Nevers Road is by virtue of
crossing the wetlands. And then we're coming before you in a couple of weeks to review the
overall development in the conservation plan how we're addressing that. But specifically
tonight,we've applied for a wetlands consideration for down for activities by Plum Gully Brook.
Basically here's a watershed line and we're talking about down in here Plum Gully Brook. This
is over here is the Podunk River watershed,basically from the top of the hill to the west. We
have total disturbance of 0.18 acres, or 7,800 square feet total to accommodate the culvert
crossing,which Mr. Arsenault will get into in a moment in more depth. And that's the extent of
the wetlands impact that we've we're proposing with this development. So,the balance of the
site contains no wetlands. We submit a report for Mr. Ianni from Highland Soils,who is
determined that the only wetlands is along Plum Gully Brook. There are no other wetlands
anywhere on the balance of the site.
2
d Mr. Arsenault also will review with you,we've already applied to the U.S. Army Corp. of
Engineers and they're working with Environmental Protection for a crossing permit through that.
And he could report to you on the status of that particular application.
We want to get into just the exact aspects of it and then we can go back to the overview.
This is a twenty-scale blowup of the crossing itself. North is to the right.
As Peter mentioned wetlands is confined to the Plum Gully Brook. If you're familiar with the
area just to the north is the high school. There's an existing 72 inch culvert which drains under
the high school. It's just over what about a hundred,hundred-fifty feet away.
{11a.tec_.Q The main entrance stops at the Community Center.
cumtoikkiYeah. It's about a hundred and fifty feet just upstream.
That's in a 72 inch pipe with wing walls. We did an extensive drainage analysis of the entire
watershed,which is about 700 acres in size,I think there's one copy of it which was submitted to
the town. Just for the design of the crossing itself. And what we determined that this crossing
should be identical to the high school one. So we're proposing a 72 inch RCP with wing walls,
crossing at Plum Gully Brook, it's shown here as I mentioned in this twenty scale proposal. The
dark blue line I maybe should mention is Plum Gully Brook which runs north and south. The
two lighter blue lines are the corridor of wetlands which are flagged by Mr. Ianni. The green is
this right now is is the wooded area,there's a wooded corridor that runs along the brook,
obviously. And a wooded corridor that there's a small wooded area along the frontage.
The crossing itself is being proposed to be placed very close to where there was an old, old
existing farm access, as this was farmed years ago. There's evidence in the brook in the same
exact location of some old pipes, concrete pipe which has eroded and washed away,because it
was a very small size as I said we're proposing a 72 inch,I believe it was like a 15 inch that was
installed there. So over the years that's washed away as the farming activities sort of subsided
through the area. But,there was a crossing there that was run some years ago.
As Peter mentioned we did apply to the Army Corp.,U.S. Army Corp. and also in conjunction
with that to the State DEP Water Resources, as a matter of course the crossing. I have received a
verbal approval from the Corp. and from the DEP. I'm just awaiting a letter in the mail from
them. The only request that they had,well actually they had two requests(tape change). They
had two requests. One was that the culvert be compressed down about six inches below the
natural grade of the brook. And this we had already,they I guess,misinterpreted the plans,or
didn't see that we had already done that. And the reason for that is rather than having a concrete
bottom through the brook, what we wanted to do is to press down below the brook channel. We
had about six inches of natural brook bedding that runs through the culvert. So that small
animals, frogs,turtles, what have you,can easily pass through the culvert without looking at
concrete and getting a little nervous,or what have you,they could just sort of pass naturally
through the culvert. The other request that they had is originally we had rip rap on the entire
3
bottom of the discharge at the outlet. Being on the slopes,they requested that the bottom be left
a natural brook, and that rip rap only be placed on the slopes,for slope protection. I talked to
JWM� Jeff he said that that was probably something that was desirable to him as well. So we did
incorporate that into the plans to show a slope protection only on the slopes. But the brook
bottom itself will be a natural dirt and rock brook bottom. So that has been incorporated into the
plans.
We are in receipt of Jeffs memo of 6/24. I have incorporated all of his requests into the plans.
The only thing that hasn't been incorporated to the plans has to do with item number five and
that has to do with plantings in the area of the crossing. The landscape architects for the project
are CR3 out of Simsbury. So I've contacted them as far as what kind of plantings would be best
suited for the slope areas through the wetlands and along just above let's say the rip rap areas
where the disturbance is. Jeff had recommended or requested possibly um,the use of crown
vetch or birds foot trefoil? In talking to CR3 they recommended that we stick with the birds foot
trefoil rather than the crown vetch. They said normally for crown vetch you need a very
alcohlly? soil and they didn't think that we would get that in this area. So they recommended
birds foot trefoil rather than the crown vetch They also recommended that we go with,like a
?a dwarf winged unonimous rose of sharon,bayberry and dogwood. So that's what is being
proposed. The birds foot trefoil going to be planted on the slopes themselves as was described to
me by CR3 and interplanted through the area with the species I mentioned. Dogwood,bayberry,
rose of sharon and the unonimous,I think that's pronounced right,unonimous.
Uonimous.
Uonimous. Okay.
Let's see,okay,as far as erosion control, since it is a good size brook,Plum Gully Brook, as I
mentioned is about 700 acre watershed,during a hundred year storm we calculated it's about 400
CFS coming down through there. So rather than having just silt fence or hay bales across the
brook,we realized that when you're talking flows of that kind,that that's a little bit under what
you should really should have for protection. So we're proposing is a stone berm temporary
stone berm across the brook in this location Proposed to be four inch stone, which would trap a
lot of the sediments, slow down the flow, sort of contain a lot of the sediments and flow in this
area, rather than letting them travel down the brook. So that is being proposed as a temporary
measure in the sequence of construction it is indicated that that is something that's going to be
looked at and maintained, obviously replaced as necessary,or added to.
Any,um one of questions was Jeff had concerned the locations of stockpiles. We are not
proposing any stockpiles for the work through this area. In looking at it, its a very tight area.
What we're proposing is that any topsoil removed from this area,actually be removed from the
site. The only thing that we're trying to do with this application is to get the crossing of the
brook in this location. As we get into the development,then we're going to get into,on the
seventeenth a couple weeks,more of the information that's required for the development of the
project, itself. As relates to stockpiles,protection of catch basins,and that kind of stuff. But,for
this application,we are really only looking at the crossing of the brook, itself. So,basically what
4
you see here is what's required to cross the brook along with any of tracking being placed at the
front.
The woodline, as I mentioned, is a wood corridor going through here. What's going to be
maintained is what's shaded in green. The woods would be disturbed through this area here,
obviously for the crossing for the roadway down along here, then put sanitary sewer this where it
ended is little woodline out at the front at Nevers Road would be removed. Basically,that's it in
a nutshell as far as the crossing goes. Be glad to answer any questions.
`ttka}ju,v. _ Jeff,did you have anything additional to your comments?
I know we talked also even though we're talking about the conservation plan which will be
addressed on the seventeenth. The stormwater management of the upper slope is going to
impact somewhat the brook. So we took that into consideration in our review for tonight. And
r on Hunter Lane,I know,we just got your revision yesterday,based on some of the comment.
Addressing the stormwater um that's coming off of Hunter Lane,which is the cul-de-sac
immediately above the stream itself,that stormwater was designed to actually be discharged to
the south and east of the cul-de-sac. So it'd be farther down from where our picture is there.
And you had initially proposed to have it discharged at the woodline. And we did find evidence
that the natural drainage from the field that exists now did cause some gully. So we did request
that the plans do show a rip rap channel that would go from the proposed level spread down
virtually to the stream line itself. So it would be protecting the flow. So there would be an
additional disturbance.
In the buffer.
In the buffer as well as this.
Cp OLD J L Yeah and minor in the wetlands, let's say. For also you're correct.
Yeah I believe we had about a six foot wide rip rap channel proposed based on your
recommendations.
Right.
Right.
And we talked we did talk about the substream on the bottom of the stream. I think we are going
to have to talk a little bit more about some localized placement of rip rap in the stream bottom
even if it's just. . .
CA'�'Pn`- t. A Just at the wing walls.
,�Iwr At the immediate wing walls,itself or you know the outlet to it.
5
Yeah.
-Air You know,we may have to get together with DEP to discuss that if that's something.
CtAL0A
Yeah, it's something that,you know,what we could do is set the rip rap down so that even if
- there's some natural material, let's say,just above the rip rap, a very thin layer above the rip rap.
They didn't seem to have too much of a concern about that. They seemed to be more concerned
about covering the concrete rather than the rip rap itself. They didn't want to see the rip rap
channel extended all the way down the brook through this area. They didn't seem to have too
much of a concern of some rip rap right at the outlet. Because they realized,I mentioned to
them that there are some ,the way we're handling the road drainage, is we have catch
basins to each side of the culvert, and then these catch basins are being discharged from a pipe
right into the walls themselves. Which is pretty common. They didn't seem to have problem
with than. The other thing that I'm looking at to do, is I know you had concern about velocity
coming down through those pipes,we have a smooth wall EDS plastic pipe. What I've looked at
is, if I flatten the slope on these two discharge points and change them to concrete, we could
probably reduce the velocity significantly. Which will eliminate or lower the need for any s???
protection at the outlet. So there's a lot of things that we could do.
Okay.
And the DEP and specifically the Corp. of Engineers,didn't seem to have a problem with that.
CLQk0_U_LL They seem to be more concerned about having a natural bottom over the concrete in the culvert
so that small fauna could. .
Jo` Sure.
Frogs,and turtles.
I doubt either one of them came out and walked the range of the brook,either. Or went
downstream to Buckland Road and see the way the sediments acting on the accumulation. And
that's another thing the if you could go over the management of from the storm drain
system as it's designed,I mean,that's pretty paramount not only pre-construction,or during
construction,but post-construction of sediment management.
Yeah we have proposed the sediment structure at each discharge, actually on every discharge,
but specifically in this location at each discharge point,there's a sedimentation stop structure.
The structure itself is going to be fitted with bell trap hood for oil separation. And also in the
overall management for the property and what we've indicated on the project,what we've
indicated is that the sedimentation structure is going to be cleaned on a yearly basis. Just to keep
the silt down, even though we have a double structure, sedimentation structure basically is the
double structure with two sumps,two two-foot sumps. So those will be cleaned on a yearly basis
to minimize the amount of silt and sands and so forth that are deposited. Oils will be controlled
by the bell trap hoods and structures.
6
Are these going to be private streets?
This is going to be a public road. Collins Crossing is going to be a public road. When we get
aluAl"ZA into the other development in a couple of weeks,there's a few of those that are going to be
private roads,but this is going to be a public road.
Q�UA�JL Any. . .
�J Okay,well when you spoke of cleaning the structures,I was going to say you're committing the
association . . .
No,only on the private,because when we talked, we were talking in generality about the project.
fjks�, Okay.
But, specifically these these are public. These will be public structures.
Okay.
Now who's responsible for cleaning them,the public.
Excuse me,can. . .
Uh,the town. But could you hold your questions until after we've finished. I'll give you a
chance, honest.
(W i/K t c,U4-TThose will be,the town as normally . .
As a part of their routine,right.
For public roadway.
Collins Crossing is proposed to be a public road.
i(kKgAAL,k, Okay.
Incidentally the input on the vegetative and the landscaped plan, CR3 was instrumental in
helping DEP prepare the wetlands manual that you probably all have. So they do some pretty
good credentials in that area.
Yeah,I guess I'm in that where I mentioned that,my only question would be the rose of sharon.
I've always thought of that as more landscape bush than . .
It's a good wild shrub though.
Is it?
For a tree it's quite,if it grows up.
Okay.
I have a question.
&�A� Yes, go ahead,Audrey.
Put stone for that's a new concept for me. Is there apt to be a poodle behind that?
Um,not really. The flow will go through because its a four inch stone. With a larger stone like
(�,,&that you're going to have a lot of voids,so the water will stretch through. What happens is
you're going to have a lot of the sediments and so forth,being trapped behind it,and in the stone.
So,it'll help as a filter. But, it won't really act to inhibit the flows all that much. You get a very
large storm, obviously a hundred year storm, it's going to go right through it and over it,but for
normal flows during the time of year when this is done,normal flows will filter through it,and
the sediment will be trapped. Normal on this site. We did this on a couple of projects,
specifically,I don't know if you're familiar with Birch Mountain Brook in Manchester,very
similar to this, We did a culvert crossing there, and it worked very well.
Because it's seemed washed away now,some bankments on either side,I don't know definitely
eroded and. . .
(U,A-m Yeah, there are some erosions there.
tkL" Yeah, and so I was wondering how much water in the spring really was going through there.
We saw it in the spring.
Yeah.
n It's quite a bit.
oh yeah.
Like I said, in a hundred year storm our calculations show close to four hundred CFS,that's a
ok""Agood size brook. And that's the reason for the size of the culvert we're talking about. A 72 inch
culvert can carry quite a bit of flow. It's approaching about five hundred cubic feet per second
capacity.
But normally you'll see it's a very,very small brook. If you cross,for example,the sledding hill,
which is about a thousand feet south of this,and up over here on the Collins,Mrs. Collins left
who was here earlier,her property. You cross over that foot bridge,and that small brook that's
8
there,that's pretty much the normal flow that you usually see there in the winter. In the spring it
2 does pick up quite a bit. But it is a pretty small channel.
But I mean,that's the reason we have quite a bit slope protection for the embankment. We have
about seven year of embankment protection through there. It's because of the flows that
we anticipate coming down through there during storms.
Do you have anything else,Audrey?
No.
I guess we have two letters. I guess,I know we do. Raising a question of contamination to the
site. Environmental contamination. I assume you have copies of those.
Yes,we've seen them.
You have them for the record.
4&JE1 I must if I gave them to you.
1V (� Must be in the folder.
My first concern would be whether this contamination might have traveled towards Plum Gully
Brook. Have you done any testing of the area to determine whether in fact,there is
contamination. And which way it might have traveled. And also, one of the letters asked about
contamination of wells.
Uh, if I may. And Hal Cummings might want to jump in anytime. Two consultants have been
retained by our clients. Donald Dubay,who is with Connecticut Environmental Engineering
ad Services. You probably,he's a professional engineer. You've probably heard of him. He's also
a doctor. And he's been retained for the environmental aspects and he's been on the job for a
couple of months now. And he's involved with analyzing the overall site, including the area
where there's some contamination of soil that occurred from prior uses on the site. Basically,
there's motor oil that was deposited up there. And so he's taken soil samples,and he's preparing
a full report for the Planning and Zoning Commission hearing at the end of July. And he's also
performing tests of some area wells. And preparing some information on the overall aspects of
that. Incidentally,he let us know that the area on the top of the hill is actually in the watershed
for the Podunk River on the other side, it is not in this particular watershed. Just to let you know
that.
But,where is that in relation?
The top of the hill is roughly over in here. And so it's back in this general area,the area where
j4 1 jt2,Q.& where there is some old barrels discovered and there's some contamination of soil and he took
samples. No question there was contamination by this motor oil. And he's done he's
9
performing analyses of ground water in the area to see if there's any effect in that area, and he's
reporting on that in a formal report that will be presented at that hearing on July 30th. Also . . .
What hearing on July 30th?
That's the Planning and Zoning Commission hearing on the as to how this overall project might
y_ in terms of the concerns about how it might effect wells in the area. And any contamination
from that is being prepared for the Planning and Zoning Commission hearing. Also . . .
If I can just interject.
Sure.
What with the site itself there's a ridge line that runs right through this location. And obviously
C�M it runs toward Sullivan Avenue,towards Nevers Road, it's an even division. The barrels, and so
forth,that were moved according to Mr. Dubay, were found in an area that drains towards the
Podunk,the Podunk River watershed,rather than the Plum Gully.
Okay.
So, for this particular application we're looking at just the crossing, for Plum Gully Brook at this
point. He indicated that nothing is going in that direction.
Okay.
That's his preliminary findings.
Okay. I guess I would like something in writing assuring this commission of that,because our
concern would be with possible contamination to Plum Gully Brook. And if we don't have any
LA)U� evidence that there isn't,I mean,you know,that's fine. If he finds that there's no way it could
reach that watershed, although I guess we still have a concern with the Podunk River watershed,
also.
(�"U. ) Well,the only other point I'd probably make is that that's a separate issue, not really dealing
with the crossing of the brook itself.
Can . . . .
It's more of an environmental issue,I guess. Which we are . .
Right.
��� Or he was involved in analyzing.
10
Right. Although the Conservation Commission also does make recommendations to Planning
and Zoning regarding environmental issues.
Correct.
So.
You're talking about just address. Hal Cummings. I'm the attorney for Collins Crossing. I can
advise you that,Dr. Donald Dubay, consulting Environmental Services, was retained to provide
a quote,full complete environmental analysis of the Collins Crossing property from Nevers
�} Road to Sullivan Avenue. To conduct such studies as he thought were necessary and
appropriate, and to render a report to us and to the Town. As an expert, basically that's what we
tell him to do. What wells he wants to test. What studies he wants to do, is entirely up to him,
as an expert,because at least they're telling him, do this, do that. We are undercutting the
independence of his analysis. The letters that you're referring to,have been given to him. And
in fact, I think some of them were already mailed directly,because we had advised the neighbors
of his involvement. And so, if Dr. Dubay wants to go out and do a well here or a well test there,
I guess the point I'm raising,I just spent two days in court in Tolland, and I had an expert
witness on the witness stand, and the first thing the other attorney said was, in cross examining
this witness, were you given any specific instructions or directions to do this or do that. What
I'm saying is is that, he's an independent. He's been retained. What wells he chooses to test, if
later on people aren't satisfied with that. There's always an opportunity for review. All I can
tell you he's been given what amounts to a blank check to do a study. And you'll be provided
that as soon as we receive it.
Okay.
And also in addition to that,there's another consultant that's been retained,Dr. Clarence Welti,
who is an expert in the area of geohydrological investigation of wells and things of that nature.
He's also looking at the impact on wells. Particularly from the vantage point of any impact on
yield of the wells, in the area.
And movement of groundwater through the area.
Right.
`(�, _ Yeah,that's the type of thing.
(LumJ - I'm sure you've heard of him,that's his expertise.
Very well known.
�n He and Dr. Dubay are going to work together, and they'll both have independent reports that'll
I Q be presented to the town.
11
Okay.
On that aspect. So, we're assure you that our clients and Attorney Cummings have given full
authority to them to do the reports that they feel are necessary and appropriate as the
G professionals they are, and that their particular respective areas and they're going to
independently do those analyses and do whatever studies they have to do in testing in order to
arrive at the conclusions that may unfold. So,they are addressing those issues.
The town's also been apprised of the situation out there, and I know a number of officials. Jeff's
been out there. The fire marshall has been out there. And I believe the town sanitarian's been
out there.
Uh huh. Well, I guess I want to be sure that this commission is kept aware of their reports. Even
�2 though some of it is a Planning and Zoning concern. Again the possible contamination of a
watercourse is clearly, and the watercourse that you're going across. It's clearly to me part of
this application, so I think we would do without the . . kept informed.
We will be crossing,we'd be glad to furnish copies. Jeff's going to be one of the first ones to get
them. The Planning and Zoning Commission will be getting them,and we can also transmit a
copy of each report to your commission when it's prepared. Latter part of this month. We'd be
glad to do that, and um I think you'll find that they're very comprehensive. We've been apprised
of what they're going through, and it's a pretty thorough analysis of what they're going to be
doing. And they do have the,they're highly regarded in their fields. So I think we'll be pleased
with the thoroughness of their investigations.
Again, our clients have not been involved with the actual, what's happened our there, the
particular the area where the motor oil on the top of the hill. And then there's also there's an
underground tank, for example,that's still there. That kind of thing is,you know, is from prior
uses.
Pre-dates us.
Pre-dates us and. .
�_tri Most of those things do. Yes.
You're probably aware that Brian Edward's is the prospective developer for this and he all this
,&Ata)_Q,o_ prior to any development activity, it'd have to be cleaned to accept it's standards. And that is
part of the proposal that will be cleaned up to accept it's standards before development proceeds.
Okay.
As part of the overall project.
Um, if I can continue. I know Carol had her had up but I had a couple more questions.
12
No,he answered my question about getting the reports.
Okay. Um,have you considered as an alternative to the crossing the pipe, either a box culvert or
a bridge structure?
I have considered a box culvert. There is a box culvert, of smaller size,just downstream down
on Sand Hill Road.
Doesn't that lessen the impact on the . . .
Not really. What I'm concerned about is the flood flows. And I have to have certain elevation in
order to achieve that. I looked at various box culverts. I would have to go to a pretty substantial
width in order to get the amount of flows that I'm,that I need without having the road, let's say,
over top for a hundred year storm. But hydraulically to work. Hydrologically to work. So, what
I found was that the 72 inch pipe gave me the best of both worlds. It was the least amount of
disturbance through the corridor,because it's only a six foot width, and it also gave me the six
foot height which enabled me to get the property hydraulics to work. I mean I could go to a six
by six box culvert,but to me it's much larger than what you need to pass the flows. It's not,
obviously going to do anything as far as lessening the impacts through there. So really the
culvert was seemed to be the way to go.
You didn't address a bridge possibility.
No, only because the area I'd come through here is such a long flat area,that normally, or if we
CQ%l,at look at like a pre-cast bridge, it's an area where you've got quite a defined channel,with very,
very steep slopes on either side. Then you can bridge it. This is something where it would be, I
think, a lot more fill, in order to get a bridge structure to work through there. It seemed to be
that this was the best way to go. Because, we looked at we looked at box culverts and we looked
at the culvert similar to the high school. The one at the high school works,I know in our
calculations, it works hydraulically, and this seemed to work too. It seemed the best, it just
seemed to be the best way to go, from our analysis. It seemed to be the least intrusive,
specifically since we're going to be leaving the bottom of it, more of a natural channel. You
know, it'll be restored back to what it is now. Right now it's a dirt,natural combination. Dirt,
soil, rock bottom,that's basically what it'll be after we get done. It'll be about six inches or so,
actually a little bit more about eight inches of natural materials at the bottom of it.
I guess I picture box culvert being more suitable to that. Because of the totally flat bottom.
Then that would work. No?
I don't know if really makes that much difference. I guess from my perspective as far as how it
would act through the wetlands.
Okay.
13
I don't know it seems to me that they're both they would both,basically offer about equally as
far as conveyance goes for the fauna and so forth, going through there. As long as there's that
corridor through that'll pass. That seemed to be the most important thing the DEP at least, has.
Okay.
Susan,you had a discussion.
How long is the Collins Crossing,the proposed Collins Crossing road?
The
Yeah.
From here to here?
Yeah. About.
About 1,800 feet.
Um,now the Plum Gully Brook we have serious ongoing erosion problems downstream from
your site. So I know,you know, I have a real concern that we make sure that nothing in this
project will add to that problem, which is,you know, already I think just about one of the most
significant erosion problems that we have in town. (Tape change)
.from up above so the determination is made very quickly that stormwater detention is not
advisable here. We're better off letting the flows go before the peak from up above starts to
come in.
On the other side, and it's not really the subject in this hearing,but on the other side it was quite
the opposite. Everything going down toward Sullivan Avenue, we will be proposing as you'll
see on the next application, in a couple weeks. We are proposing a stormwater detention there.
Because it is a situation where we have to protect some of the pipes on Sullivan Avenue, and we
have to time it such that our flows don't start affecting some of the peaks. But in this area, it
was felt that the best thing to do was to let our peak discharges go well before the peak from the
seven hundred acres started to come through. Similar to what was done down at the library, let's
say, which is just downstream.
As far as long term,there's not much,you know, shy of picking up some of the debris that may
be causing some blockages in the brook, let's say, or blockages in the flow of the stream. That
can be done,but as far as anything really would be a short term measure just really to protect it
from our development until everything's stabilized.
Would it be impossible or advisable do you think to do some planting in the stream, either to
help with the sedimentation,you know, along the banks or something. Because along the banks
14
throughout there, from place to place,there are some erosion problems, either to help out that
problem or for you know, mitigation,wildlife enhancement?
If you'd like to have us work with Jeff and with the landscape architect for that, we'd be glad to
you know, if you want to make that a condition, that we're appropriate in the view of Jeff and
the landscape architect to add some of that vegetation as we go down through the natural
corridor, if that's what you're talking about,be glad to work with them on that. Because I know
CR3 likes to have things that are even,you know, shelter and food for the fauna there. And bird
species and they like working with that. And you know, I'm sure they'd be more than willing to
help out within that regard.
There may be an opportunity there to use some bio-engineering on some of the machine bank
�J cuts,to the outside corridors.
That will be within the limits of the property though.
Oh yeah. Only. .
Oh sure.
( � Oh absolutely. Yeah. It's about, what are we about seven hundred feet?
Something like that. Seven acres of feet, here.
n I think what you're probably going to find or what we found is that you probably saw the same
tC thing, is that you see this blue line meanders through. Where a lot of the erosion occurs is some
of these sharp turns.
4m; k Right.
So,there are specific spots that we can sort of highlight and hone in on as far as protection.
Because,you know water doesn't like to make breaking turns too much. But unfortunate)
Y p ,
g Y
the way the brook, the natural course seems to go. But,there are on the outside,just at this
bend in particular, I know at the outside of that curve there's some undercut and erosion going
on. Something that we can take a look at.
There,yeah, also there this may end up being,there's a possibility that part of this property can
end up being an outdoor classroom. We are contiguous to the high school. And we have our
'n clients have offered the property to the town,there's a half an acre of land on the north side, and
Nor f then also there's approximately four and a half acres on the south side of the road. We've
offered it to the town, for open-space purposes and the Town Council, of course, for the long
process with other troops,will be evaluating that. Making a determination of whether or not
they want to accept that as a land donation for open-space. If the town doesn't want to accept it,
then it'll remain in private ownership. And but,there's a chance that it could be,you know,you
know the classes at the high school,they do go up and down the corridor. You see them out
15
where there's photography classes, or biology classes, or what have you. You see them out there
all the time. You know I've got a son that's going there next year, and I'm sure he's going to be
enrolling in classes, and they go walking out,they go through the woods across the street.
They'll try to stay as close as they can to the high school campus,and then they'll be wandering
off and it'd make a lot nicer biology outdoor classroom than some of the things that we had at
the high school where it's been pretty much fully developed. So more of a natural area. So,
that's a possibility.
And this area down in here, which is an existing field,has a possibility of being,you know,they
might want to use it as a field for the school if they want to, but we're not making that
determination. That's a future decision of the town.
Well seeing you raise that issue,Peter,I(laughter)
I'm not going to raise that.
No, actually,I have a different question. The previous applicant,who's site was similar in size,
approximately thirty acres. Said that he was required to give ten,minimum.
He's an open-space . We're not . . .
Oh, okay. What,now what formula applies to your. Situation.
Well there is a formula,um, we're creating a ten lot subdivision,plus we're creating five parcels.
Two of them are the open-space, and then there are the three parcels for the senior residence
developments. But, where there's ten-lot subdivision one of these proposed here. Ten lot
subdivision, can you see this, or maybe I should bring it up a little bit?
No,we can see it.
Yeah,but there's a ten lot subdivision at the top. And then we're creating one,two,three parcels
for the senior residence developments. Two of them for single-family detached elderly units,
&JT0-.LU-e_ and then one for the twenty-units down on the Nevers Road side. So, as part of that there is even
a conventional subdivision now,they amended their rules,they are requiring some open-space.
Not anything like an open-space subdivision. Some open-space. Or the developer could
contribute based on appraisal, dollar amount, as a payment in lieu of open-space, if the town
chooses they don't want the open-space that's proposed. So, if the Town Council there's an
open-space task force, some of you may be serving on that, I'm not sure who's on it. I know
some staff are on it involved, who's on it,Milt?
No. Betty is.
Okay. So, open-spaced task force. There's also the,I know the Board of Education made a
A&akQ,« recommendation to the Town Council the other night,they would very much recommending the
town accept the land, and then there's uh there are other people maybe involved, I'm not sure
16
Planning and Zoning Commission, etcetera. And then they make a determination,the Town
Council does, and then hopefully forward that to the Planning and Zoning Commission before
the July 30th public hearing.
So,they can make a decision, if the town wants it, it's theirs. If the town doesn't,then there will
be a payment in lieu of open-space prior to development.
I see.
It is one of the few areas contiguous to the high school that's still available.
It seems to be somewhat desirable as far as those people at the high school, like the coach and so
forth, as a practice area. I guess they're very short of practice . . .
keAQot It won't support a soccer field, anyway.
ajoQ Not a full . .
—LVAJvi1,Y? Uh huh. Uh huh.
But,I guess it would be pretty,pretty poor as far as a practice area.
Their fields are very much over utilized, if you're familiar with their programs there. And they
take a beating. They use the fields for often practice the same fields they use for competition
and they never get a break.
One of the things we have to do as, while we're on the topic, one of the things we have to do, is
we are in because of the size of the watershed and everything else that comes down through here.
There is a flood zone that comes down, under you're flood zone. So, obviously with the
introduction of the culvert and fill, we are reducing some of the volume, so we have to make it
up, an equal swap. As far as goes. So,this is the existing flood line on this side,when it
runs down through here. So,what I'm proposing is some loose grating in this open field,to push
to flood zone line back to here, so that we make up an equal swap, actually I think we'd be
making a surplus as far as the hundred year volume of flood retainage from here,that we're
losing here. So,this area will be somewhat flattened out through here. Right now it's the
remnants of an old cornfield what have you. It's,there's not not vegetation there. It's fairly flat
now,but what we'd be doing is sort of regrading this area right here to give us back a. . .
Right now it's undervegetated,I'd say,basically when I saw it. There's some old corn stalks,
and not a lot else.
Yeah.
ttk41UL2-1►7 Okay. Susan, did you have a question?
17
Nope,that's fine.
Uh, if you're regrading that,I mean, it's not going to, so it's going to be sloped there, so that you
can increase the flood zone. So it's not going to be flat.
It's going to be fairly flat. It's flat right now and it will remain flat.
How, how. . .
It'll be very slight gradations(sp)
How much between the street and the tree line, how far is that?
We're not going into, okay,how much is it?
Yeah,how many feet? I'm just curious. Didn't seem that far.
O"kN Let's say from the edge of pavement.
0"k-�LYep.
%.V�Okay,that's a hundred . . .
To the back tree line.
�y, a Just about two hundred feet. It's not exactly.
Yeah. I just just to warn you guys I'm sure Board of Education is really excited about having
�L this as a playing field. I mean half of it's a hundred year flood plain. It's right on the brook. I'm
really not sure that that would be the most appropriate use for. . .
Well, when they looked at it they started asking questions. How big is it? How big can we make
it? One of the things that we told them is that, you know,really,you know,this is the wetlands
line. This is the setback. Combination of either forty feet from the wetlands or eighty feet from
the brook, whichever's greater,that's how this line is. We told them that,you know,we're
proposing grading, which is not really touching that. We're not touching that woodline. As far
as what we're proposing. That they would be very hard pressed to try and intrude further in that
direction. Without a permit. So they are aware of that,because originally they were saying, gee
maybe we can get a full size field here . . .
No, we told . .
akd"UZUIL It's not going to happen.
4 M&A-b- - We told them that's not going to happen.
18
No. We told them if you want to use that as a practice area. . .
It's going to be seeded anyways.
that's going to be somewhat regraded. It's going to be seeded over. It's going to be a lawn
area. Because,I mean,that's basically what happens when it's,right now it's undervegetated. It
should . . .
f Yeah. There's more erosion currently right now,than should.
Right. So,that's really what they're getting. They're getting a practice area, if that's what they
want to use it for. They're not getting a full size field.
Well,I'm not sure that they are getting anything at all. The town may be getting, and I assume
that's under the control of the council.
�A&At q- It is. It's
And then, rules and Town Council channels, as you . . .
and then they make it, actually,the Town Council decides whether or not they are willing to
accept, and then their recommendation is passed on to . .
It's just something that they were . . it was a desired part of Board of Ed. to get it.
Sure.
Uh huh.
Yeah.
That's all.
It's all we can say.
If the Town, if the Town Council . .
Well there's the lien on the other side of the brook,too.
Yeah.
I mean. . .
19
There's another half acre on the north side that's also made available, if the Town Council
decides they don't want it, and I trust their the final say on that,then it'll remain in private
ownership. And our clients will end up making a payment in lieu of open space.
Or the Town . .
It's just a formula. .
Yes. Exactly. That's a possibility too.
Lot of(couldn't make out) It's just that, we felt it was important that the Board of Ed. is looking
at it.
Uh huh.
That's all.
We were very careful to mention to them that this line right here is fairly sacred. Thou shalt not
intrude further in that direction without a permit.
It is directly across the street from Nevers Road Park. It is south of the high school. It is north
of what everybody calls the sledding hill, which Catherine, who just left, Collins family.
I think we know who sold this to the Board of Ed. Do we? (Laughter)
But there may be(someone talking) other than athletic fields and stuff,there may be another
purpose of the town . For example they just may want it for open space and leave it
alone. That's a possibility too. Um, I've been told don't think that the only possible entity that
might want it is just the Board of Education. Maybe other parties within the Town groups may
be interested in this for conservation purposes. They may want it for agriculture. Who knows.
So there are a lot of different uses,but it's a unique piece in that's contiguous to the park and to
the high school and to the sledding hill, so. So,that's pretty visible piece, plus it's also the entire
length of Nevers Road frontage. We wanted to leave that alone,we didn't propose any
development in here. It's completely on the other side of the brook, is what we're proposing,
other than that one access where we have to have there.
Right. Anyone else have questions? Jeff,I was going to ask you next.
Yeah, in going back to the sediment retention, Jim McCook and I talked a little bit about we
proposed some, and I know you keep referring to this application as on the stream crossing. But
it also includes the stormwater discharge system. Because it is effecting the wetlands,the
conservation applications that are going to be forthcoming, don't deal with areas that concern
wetlands that's why their signified-as such. So,I'm going to-kind of go back to the stormwater
system here a little bit. And we proposed an extra sediment basin up at the end of the center cul-
de-sac, Sunrise. To intercept sediment coming off of Sunrise-R-oad sands.
20
Right.
.�� Now Jim also indicated that it will be possible to deepen the sumps on the catch basins.
Yeah we did that.
Did you indicate them on there which sumps, oh there right there.
Yes. They are actually on the set that was given to you yesterday?
Uh huh.
Yeah. That's on there.
��a.QRph� Okay.
Dd It'll be a four foot sump. I think it's mentioned both in the grade plan and then also the plain
profile.
Okay. I missed that.
Yeah it shows a,I think there was one structure in particular, I guess that CB 14's.
14? (Paper shuffling)
Fourteen.
Oh okay.
Y
Four foot sump.
And it's portrayed that way in the plan profiles.
Okay,I just wanted to get that cleared up,that wasn't put on the plans.
Yeah, I think everything other than the the actual plantings that CR3 was proposing, everything
else was addressed on the plans. CR3,what they did was they-looked at it, and then they
forwarded the memo,which I think I included. At least the description that transmittal I gave as
to what they were proposing.
Uh huh. Yeah.
That it, Jeff? Anyone else on the Commission have any questions? Yes Jack.
i
21
Just one thing, which I'm not sure which permit it comes on. But,the rip rap channel for the
drainage off of Hunter Drive. Will that not require a wetlands permit?
41t�lt--L Yeah. I mean that. . .
4 You keep referring to further ones as,ENS site plans. ENS . . .
&MAL, That's a recommendation from your staff. . .
Yeah. I just want to make sure that when that comes in, it comes in as a wetlands permit as
opposed to just a ENS site . . .
That would be part of this permit.
This permit. And you make that as a condition . . .
Okay.
Based on the recommendation of,they just had . . .
Because actually there was one other thing too,there's an existing, if I can use your plan,there's
an existing pipe . .
The outfall here, yeah.
Town drainage on Nevers Road, right now, which comes on the property. And there's a small
gully which is a road , and Jeff requested that we throw some rip rap in that, which we . .
Yeah. Jeff and I were looking at that . . .
You know what I think is also someone had given a drainage, a sewer easement to the
&d/Y11/h trTown, is that what you're referring to Bob?
Yeah.
The drain,yeah,there's a drain easement along there,yeah.
All right. Well maybe, I don't know if there's a drainage,there's a drainage pipe. I'm not so
sure about the easement.
says easement on . .
No. I don't think so.
I don't think we found anything, formally.
22
They just did it?
a"_t�They just did it.
(Laughter)
So.
6104awj But, we are going to be proposing some rip rap through that.
""& Okay. So
The town owns if it doesn't, and then we do something there.
Yeah, if the area becomes open space,then obviously the town will own it or what have you.
It's not open space. If it remains private,then obviously what we'll do is,you know,there will
be an easement granted.
Okay.
So, Walt . . .
Just to clean it up.
Plat_f,d_ So those two are part of this permit to . . .
Yes.
Okay.
Yeah,I would say they would have to be.
Any other questions, from the Commission. Comments?
I just had a question. The water channel you talked about,Jeff, coming down from the Hunter
Drive development. What about um, where we were. What about the eastern side of Sunrise
Lane,to that come through the same channel?
Sunrise, which would be the center cul-de-sac.
Yeah.
That actually drains down Collins Crossing to the stream crossing.
23
Yeah. The roadway itself, everything from the top of the hill, if you, at this point everything
from the top of the hill. Which is here. Runs down to Sunrise Lane. (mumble)drains by catch
basin pipe to Collins Crossing. From the rears of these properties,this area runs down,there's a
couple of yard drains in the backs of these buildings. This system then connects into the same
Hunter Drive and basically goes through that same pipe that we were talking about. So this area
now does, from the roadway or actually let's say from the houses, in fact this way it does run
down through that system. Anything above on the high side of Sand Hill runs through onto
Sunrise and so on, and then down Collins Crossing.
Through a closed pipe system.
aA-4-M Right.
And then where does that go? Nevers Road?
Then it goes down through the,yeah, into the Plum Gully Brook.
Yeah.
It'll be going down through the same . .
Direct main to the stream.
Right,then at the crossing.
Well through the sedimentation basins and . . .
Right.
other. .
Eventually to Plum Gully Brook.
Did you have anything else,Audrey?
No.
No. Anyone else? Is there anyone,excuse me.
-� Is there anyone from the public who would like to.
Yes.
Yes sir. If you would come forward and identify yourself for the record,please.
24
John Callahan. Sullivan Avenue. This this necessary , right here,they have another
entrance from Sullivan Avenue. This is going to be a cross street. Is it absolutely necessary?
�- For the order to go through? Yes.
Yeah.
It is.
For public safety it is.
For public safety?
Yes.
�t,er�ry Is that a flood plain in here?
Yeah.
A flood zone.
IWAU, Just along the brook.
Are you going to give any land, west of the brook to the town?
We're not proposing to, no.
Other than,there's the strip on the north side of Collins Crossing,along the high school property.
We're proposing that half an acre, it goes west of the brook, couple hundred feet.
Well the open space area,this is the line right here. So it is just west of the brook. If that's the
question. This area here,that I'm outlining right here, is proposed to be the open space. The
brook itself,Plum Gully Brook, would be completely all in the open space.
Then why. . .
&InA-L.e c.�-- We're not proposing open space . . .
Because there is a dump in the right corner here.
J",MLa What do you mean by right corner?
There is a dump . .
25
I'm John Callahan, Jr. In the right corner of the property,right here,I used to work for Mr.
(� Collins as a kid. There is a dump right here,full of barrels and metal. All kinds of stuff.
&LU -k"J Well it may be removed. May be removed.
Because the bottom . . .
This part right here, where used to be . . .
.gam� where this rap rap's going to be. Is any drainage gonna come off of Hunter's Drive.
dw,"� Yes.
Into this?
That's the reason for it.
Right.
Okay.
Now where this berm is here? This stone berm you're putting in? Is there going to be any
additional silt control beyond that? Because I'm the surveyor. I know what's a berm so I know.
Well there's going to be silt fence all along this entire length.
I'm not talking about that,I'm talking about right here.
aw"0)1� No. Because you can't put silt fence . . .
off j j",W,On your back right here.
O,k . You can't put silt fence across the brook with this kind of flow. It's going to get knocked down.
N��l j There won't be any hay bales, or anything?
(9,0 � No. It's going to be,they'll be washed away. The only way to do it is with something a little bit
more substantial, which is a temporary stone berm. That's the best way to handle it.
So you're going to give the town a dump area to clean?
No. I was out there, there's some, what I saw were some bottles, and some metal. And uh, one
of the recommendations to Planning and Zoning, would be that that area also be addressed as
part of the development, it would have to be cleaned up.
26
Right.
Cf The barrels are moved. If the barrels are gone, how you gonna know where to test?
They'll still,they know where to test. To address what was addressed earlier, on the top of the
hill, where the barrels were. That they said there's not a, with the topography of the land, where
the barrels were, it all does run down to Plum,to the brook. From that side. It is on the back of
the hill, it's not at the top of the hill. It is something to be concerned with, looked into. Where
the barrels did sit. And where all the oil was up there, you can still see it sitting on the ground.
There's a full analysis being done, so I mean . . .
I just wanted . . . .
a"
Yeah.
You know,that's why we brought up the issue. Because we do want, we do want to have
addressed by the consultant,you know. Definitively where is that, if there was any potential
pollution that developed from that site, where'd it go. Did it go down towards Sullivan Avenue.
Did it go down towards Plum Gully . . .
They can't really. Because it's on the back side . . .
Mr. Dubay is doing a good job from what he can see.
There also is another area to be concerned with. It's where the gully,with a like a kettle hole cut
through there. Where there's a road. Where there was a lot of dumping that was done,years,
and years and years ago. You know,there's tires. Drums. And it's all been brushed over.
There's an old shed pushed in there.
There's a bunch of stuff that's down . .
Okay.
Just another little area can be, something to be aware of.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He hasn't walked in that.
Mr. Dubay?
27
Be prepared to walk itself . . .
Mr. Dubay couldn't walk right off. .
And my truck to show him the areas.
I And I think he's taking me u on it.
A
W He couldn't walk it? Why do you mean?
His . . .
It's rambles and everything. It's very difficult to walk.
Yeah. We've walked it.
ttLa) uvo Yeah. I was gonna say.
We've been there. (Laughter)
How could you ladies walk the property? I've talked to him on several occasions, including the
day that the quote infamous barrels were removed, he was on the property.
Okay. Is there any . . did you have anything else you wanted.
Nope.
Yes.
My name is Linda Brown. My son your infamous barrels. I'm talk about the well.
Okay.
Okay. If you look at Mr. DeMallie addressed it. Can I address it? Even though it's not
supposed to be part of this meeting?
I'm not sure what you mean?
About my well.
Oh. All right.
Yeah. Well I'm just challenging his expert. Okay. I mean,I'm not I'm a little naive. I may be a
� little stupid. But, he said that he um Mr. Dubay test wells,that he thinks should be tested for for
different contamination. And here's let's see. Here's where the barrels and all this were. Now
28
here is the well that he tested twice. Right over here. And here's the barrels. Here's my well.
Now,to me,just this common sense. Now you don't test the barrel way over here,without
testing a well that's right there. Okay. So, you know what I'm saying I mean,to me,that's just
common sense. Mr. DeMallie has contacted me and said that they are going to test my well.
«t�IdAkkL We're testing all the wells.
Right. But,Mr. Callahan's has been tested twice. And this one over here on Hillsdale has been
tested twice already. I, and the reports aren't supposed to be out until July 30th,he saying. I
don't understand how anything can be approved unless we know what kind of contamination is
there. If there's any? Where it flows? Where it goes? I mean, and I don't how the process
moves,but I'd really like to know.
Well . .
Can I make a suggestion, if I might?
In a moment. Um,this meeting by no way constitutes approval.
Okay.
Um, and I guess I'd have to turn to my expert on whether this commission has the right to hold
up the approval based on your well testing. I think . .
Or the contamination of that, or from the brook that their talking about?
Yes,right. Yes. We had certainly have the jurisdiction on the stream. The wells may be a
Planning and Zoning issue.
Yeah.
And they certainly would not approve anything until they have all the reports.
Let's say the brook . . .
I'm sure.
. . .that you're talking about down here,I mean is(tape change)
Yes.
No. Let's say that this,would you have to wait for the report, about the brook before you could
approve this.
�� I would say,yes. I would say that would be a good idea,yes.
29
�� — Okay. Then I would think so too.
Jeff you wanted . .
Well the application specifically concerns the actual placement of the structure.
I know, but see to me that's a key part of the whole development. If they can't cross that brook,
they can't put a road through the whole thing. Do you know what I mean?
Uh huh.
And they can't cul-de-sac's coming up. They don't want to come from Sullivan Avenue and
then cul-de-sac's.
But that doesn't apply, it doesn't apply approval of the whole project. Because they could get
this approved and the project could be denied.
Okay.
<,ALYA_ And. . .
I don't want, I just want everything done right. I know there's going to be houses put in there,
&AVA--) but I mean,I don't want the people to run this up. We got a nice little neighborhood up there,
and I just wanted to say that.
Uh huh. No. I understand.
You know it's our opinion that the testing of wells or any contamination or non-contamination or
auAklavA what have you, really doesn't have any bearing on the placement of a culvert and what we're
looking for is the crossing of a wetlands with a culvert and roadway. They really there really is
no bearing on the environmental issues as far as contamination goes with this application. So I
mean we just want to make that clear that,you know, it's our opinion that they're not related.
They are definitely separate issues.
ell,probably not the fact that the issues are being addressed by professional consultants.
'W��ve had a request from numerous people, abutters who would like their wells tested.
Including Mrs. Brown. We've indicated to her that the consultant will recommend any tests that
are going to be done, and if she's makes her a sampling available to us, we will they are going to
be sampling even her well. And performing a test.
Uh huh.
So,you know,their whatever the consultants are recommending or experts in that area, is being
done. And they are sampling the wells,and you know, so we're doing what we can do based on
30
the condition that's there. Um,you know,that predates you know,what we're proposing to do.
We don't think it has a lot of bearing,what we're proposing to do in terms of development end
of it,but we have to clean it up. And we have to understand what the impacts are,if any,on
adjoining wells. Due to either contamination or to the development activity. And that's what
we're addressing,and we don't have any conclusions yet. And we're and their reports will be
done and they take time to prepare. We're not asking our consultants to rush them. They will
take time, in fact,not all the sampling has been done. So,how are we supposed,you know,I tell
them to rush the report until all the information's in.
Uh huh.
So, it can't be done.
The last thing you want to do is rush something.
Right.
Right. Yes. I guess I agree.
You want them to be thorough.,too.
Right
You wouldn't want Dr. Welti to do his report after Dr.Dubay's done his. So.
Yes. I agree with you that the possible contamination has nothing to do with the stream
crossing,but I think once brought to the attention of this commission,the possible contamination
particularly of the stream might well constitute a violation that under a whole separate issue.
And I don't think this commission can ignore the possibility.
No. We understand.
A condition of that.
6 Uk4UA No. We understand it's a preexisting condition.
4h yeah. So,I understand. No,I'm not saying you caused it,I'm just saying if it exists,we can't
ignore it.
It's unfortunate but it's something that property owners obviously trying to deal with the
best they can.
Proposing residential development there used to be some commercial activities there. It used to
be a bus company.
31
Oh yeah.
Collins Bus Company.
That's probably where were getting the motor from and that's why there's a flank, fuel tank right
next to the barn on the property that will be removed. And that's why we had those activities.
J Also,an apple orchard which could have had pesticides.
Okay. So there was an apple orchard there once.
You know not only wells have been sampled but I mean,we've done some extensive soil testing
of the property. We did some deep tests. Some samples were taken,so. One of the things we
looked we did some test holes that were 20-23 feet deep,just to loop and see if there was ground
water. We didn't find any evidence of even modeling or groundwater through the area. It's all
fairly clean sands and some things and gravel.
Right.
So,through the conservation plan which addresses the whole site,and through the Planning and
Zoning Commission applications which address the whole site,plus their independent of those
&AaA� applications,town staff are already involved with the review of any contamination problem and
through those measures,we think everything's going to be addressed,so.
Yes. Okay. Susan?
Yeah,Peter can you just make sure for us,I'm sure it won't,but that the report definitively
addresses any possible,you know,watershed or contamination of the streams,and that,you
know,just that it's uh,because,I'm sure it would probably,you know, focus on the soil and the
wells and everything. Just make sure that he has that in there for us. Because that would be the
section of it that we would be . . .
That's why we have two consultants. Dt Dubay is looking at the environmental aspect as far as
levels of contamination if there are any, Where it is. That kind of stuff. He's providing a lot of
the basic ground work. Der. Welti,as a doctor and also as a P.E.Engineer,is looking at it,he's
going to be taking that information and looking at the overall watershed as far as the patterns of
groundwater movement through the area. And if there is, let's say some contamination,
hypothetically,where that would logically extend to. How far. When it would get there. When
it got there. That kind of thing. That's his end ofit. So,we decided that we agreed. It would be
logical just to take it to the next step. Not only to evaluate whether there's any contamination,
but what is the effect of that contamination,if there is any. So,that's why we brought Dr. Weld,
�Q&/k,Qtit-9_ And he's been involved in that business for decades.
Since dirt.
33
klr If there is,he's going to be able to identify that.
Okay.
aLywAj We're providing him with a good set of plans. All . . .
& e's already been provided with a good set of plans.
Soils testing. -He's going-to get Dr. Dubay's reports and information. He's going to draw
conclusions of whether there's contamination, or how it would go. But, also on the
groundwater coming through-the area. And is there a potential fora draw down by some of the
cuts for the roadway from area wells. He's going to be looking at all that.
He's already looked at so many wells in this area, anyways. He knows what's below the surface.
He knows what problems have been occurring.
We mention the area and(two talking at once).
-U)4jLA_pi4-i Uh huh. Well this is good.
cj"� He's very knowledgeable.
Are they going to waitto do the culvert crossing until all the testing has been done on all the
soils. I mean, is this the approval of the culvert crossing . . .
ftUtl - The culvert crossing can't occur until all the other project
Right.
(gyp Including
They wouldn't be doing it until the project is approved.
Yeah. Sothis is just one of many steps that are required.
Jeff, do we have engineering comments on the crossing.
No.
No. Okay.
Not yet.
Not yet, okay. Okay.
34
rXot c And we submitted the application,I think it was on June 4th.
They were . . .
Yes. Bo left, I think we have a crunch in engineering that we've not . . .
- Is there any other questions from the public? Yes sir?
My name is George Donahue. I'm from Sullivan Avenue. And our concern, also is the wells.
We have a community well. Plus there are about twenty-two wells in that immediate vicinity.
And this part probably isn't quite contaminate the wells as much as the detention basin that they
proposed on Sullivan Avenue,which is later.
Yeah,that would under the . . .
pw� Connects.
Connects.
The detention basin the water must have to go down. It doesn't run off. .
No. It is to recharge the groundwater. But,that's the idea.
Tests are going, well-I don't if you're familiar with the tennis courts. They didn't put any,they
didn't, and uh,on that school property,they didn't make any provisions for those. And the water
washed all the backyards out.
Uh huh.
So,the water has to go somewhere.
Right. Right.
And the high school, at the present time,I think the water goes into Plum Gully Brook,too, or
doesn't it.
6"-U�Yes.
Uh huh.
Oh yeah. Everything from that part of the . . .
So, if you're going to build all these houses,the water's going to run down.
It's gotta go down the hill up from The parking dot's,roads, and
35
Well . . .
&M,91_&t,�st_The water has to go somewhere.
It's going with the Plum Gully Brook, eventually.
Eventually. Eventually it will,but it'd be under controlled circumstances.
Sand. Salt. And oil leaks.
Well,that's what they're trapping mechanisms on the . . .
The don't trap it at the high school.
Hmmmm. If they are,they're probably,yes I imagine we did ask for a sedimentation trapping.
Take a ride up there some day and look. The water runs right down into Plum Gully Brook, and
then, when they built the parking lot,they moved it.
Uh huh.
And they put a big drywell up there.
Uh huh.
So,the lower end still runs into . . .
But,yes but,there are sediment. . .
But he must have salt in the winter when you plow, with all that salt. And the runoff must go
�u - into the brook. Must pollute the brook someway. Because that brook eventually goes into
Podunk River, doesn't it.
Ehh, not yes. I guess it does.
Yes. A couple miles downstream.
Yes. Right. Yes, I assume there is a certain amount of dissolved salt that probably is in it,but as
far as oil and. .
���Leakage from the cars,that doesn't. . .
36
Right. I assume that we plow at the time they renovated the high school, that we probably asked
for hooded catch basins on the high school parking lots. We do that in all parking lots now. So
the hooded catch basins retains the oil.
There's a type,there was the last time I looked. The lower parking lot. (couldn't hear-cough)
Then it should have a structure on it that would pull oil and sediment.
Right.
Before it goes into the brook.
Everyone of our sedimentation structures, last structures before the discharge has that. In the
design. That Mr.
Separators.
Who pumps those out? The town?
Yes.
&//((�� Because we have from the tennis court they come down Mountain View right the Hillsdale
OU Road, and there's standing water in those catch basins. Which must be great for the mosquitoes.
I think they're meant to hold water.
Those would be the sumps.
Right.
For separate all the level . .
So that the silt can settle out before it washes beyond.
&X�The community well is right near that. It must seep down into the ground.
No, not from the catch basin it shouldn't.
Minimal.
Where does it go?
It probably goes into Plum Gully Brook.
Where does the sedimentation structure . . .
37
No, I'm talking about the existing ones on Hillsdale Road, now. In that, stormwater drains, and
there's standing water. .
Right.
After the that the water comes into the structure and then the pumps stop it, so it belongs
4yy�� to the sediment out of the water, and then the water continues on out into the brook,
after and that drains off.
If a big rain falls, it remains there.
Is that road going to,the water . . .
)gig—t&L-The opposite direction from where it is.
Can I ask a question? Is that road that's crossing the brook. Is that going to be a public road?
Yes.
Yes.
Is that going to be public all the way to Sullivan Avenue.
4 Yes.
And that will belong to the town?
That's correct.
Will the bridge belong to the town?
AntR_L&-Q-The culvert.
&,�, Culvert?
f Wilt- ,The pipe will belong to the town.
How about the bridge,the maintenance to the bridge?
Uk"" 1 There's not bridge.
No bridge. It's a culvert.
It's a-p..�pe.
38
bx"6-1t Whatever crossing you have to drive across someway.
A pipe.
Yes. It's gotta be a road across the pipe.
Yes. It'll be a road laid over the top of the pipe,yes.
Does that belong to the town,then?
Yes.
Yes it would. Just like every other road in town.
&"Jt� Not every other road.
ka-L A All the town roads.
The neighborhood road, isn't.
But,anyways if I just may address. The water coming out of Collins Crossing,the public street,
and the detention area, goes into Sullivan Avenue. And then it goes to the south, away from his
neighborhood up here.
aQ"aAADownstream.
�C It goes the other way.
Okay.
Exiting on the other side.
On Plum Gully Brook it goes down to the south.
The catch basins on the , who's going to maintain it.
It was a private company.
There's a maintenance schedule for those. They'll have a . . .
does the crossing belong to the town,then?
39
The only the only requirements of the town be Collins Crossing and Sunrise Lane. Those will be
CLMptI,A public roadways. These other roadways would be private. And there's a maintenance schedule
for cleaning all the drainage areas.
Snowplowing and sand and cleaning out the catch basins.
But the water and(can't hear-two people talking at once) Plum Gully Brook,right?
C� Only,well only half of it. From here from Sunrise down. This area all drains down.
Your side goes(two people-at least)
allftAALA It's split fifty-fifty.
And then later on,well this doesn't have anything to do with that, we have a major crises on
Sullivan Avenue with the triangle up there, with the state trying to straighten that out. And
4fWtic� you're putting another road to make the situation worse.
&gAj,_That's a traffic issue, and we'll address that on July 30th. There's another expert.
6Ltd,e�There's a traffic engineer.
Excuse me. Could you repeat your name for our secretary?
George who?
Donahue.
Okay,thank you.
Thank you. Did you have anything else you wanted?
/�► No,I think the town missed the boat by not buying that twelve acres of land abutting the high
A�1 school. But it's too late now.
I would guess.
n ¢ For years they had this plan on Sullivan Avenue. And we thought that was the lady owned that
property,but now instead of nineteen acres, it's thirty-one acres. Goes up over the hill.
Yes. Yeah. Yes. This project does certainly.
I don't know if the land has been sold yet or not,but I think the town is missing the boat.
� -They're always talking at the Town Council's abouttheyneed land for athletic fields. And
eventually a swimming pool.
40
Uh huh.
And after you build houses the land is gone.
y� The town chose to purchase a property north of Nevers Road Park,this was property,as
k/W"
opposed to other properties in the area,when they evaluate that. And they paid a lot of money
for that.
tUOkW Uh huh.
We paid.
(Question or comment)
&t&( They a property and a couple others.
They'll never get a chance after the houses are there.
That's true.
That's,right.
Is there anyone else? Yes sir. Come forward a little bit here.
Could you come a little closer so she an i y c pick you up on the tape.
If I can have your name please?
Dirk Barrins.
And address.
Sullivan Avenue.
Okay.
Have they done any other designs that would not impact the wetlands that would still be with the
&ju�- realm of public safety. Maybe not quite as economically feasible as the current,but something
that would not have any impact?
OAjtjOxA Yeah,actually,I mean,to tell you the truth. .
Maybe a circle or bunkback.
41
To tell you the truth the developer would love to bring the Collins Crossing road in, and end it in
a cul-de-sac and not have to do the crossing. I mean that from a cross perspective would be
cheaper for him. But, from public safety,there's a couple of issue. And one is maximum cul-
do-sac length for dead end road in town. You can't go more than 600 feet. It's the regulations.
Which is pretty short.
And the other one is when you have this many units,you really it's desirable to have two access
9UU&UA points. When the police and fire looked at it,they agreed that you really should have an access
point from each end
What if you out down on units then you could probably do it.
No you still can't. You still can't. You'd have a maximum,this cul-de-sac we have right here.
&"OIAIs really at the maximum length that the town allows. The town regulations don't allow anything
longer than,a dead end road longer than 600 feet. Period.
&ffao,�Well if you were to stop at the top road there,and cut out that back road and give that open space
,to the high school,then they'd have plenty of room for the athletic field.
aku"J14A The only property which(laughter).
&I(A_L&D, . . . that top street,you couldn't even get that far.
What sort of protection are you going to have on this culvert in order to warn at the high school
has fences on both sides due to the students go into these culverts. Hanging out. And leaving
trash. I can see that happening especially if that strip now becomes part,you know that small
forty-five foot strip now becomes part of the high school. They say clear the trees out. There is
a path that you guys can walk through. You know a lot of beer bottles,things like that in there,
and you know,it's just one more place for people to hang out before school or after school or. . ,
It's already there. It's already there.
The fence is there.
rgA_t Q,:¢-,Those kids can walk over there right now.
But I mean. .
jt�,��t Well let's say in the culvert.
- What they would they've done at the high school, is they've eliminated that from being
6"t u4i able to enter that by putting in some fencing and so on,so that you know,that one isn't used that
way. You know we don't want to have another one being used the same way.
42
The only thing we're proposing here is is a setting in a guiderail for protection along the
roadway. There is guiderail proposed on both sides. But as far as fencing,I mean,you know, if
you tried to put fencing across the brook,the only thing that would happen is just started
collecting debris. It would start to clog and
We're not recommending that if anything they for security reasons,whatever,they wanted to
close it off so the kids don't go in there for a smoke.
Okay then what about animals? Could the animals . . .
Yeah,we quite frankly,we wanted to,I know there was even a comment, staff comments about
removing all dead trees from the property. What have been no interest in removing the dead
trees from the property that that area going through that. I have on my property,I live not too far
from here,and there are some trees that are in disrepair and that I might call them,they're not
pristine,but they're habitat. And,you know, lot's of animals live in them, So,you know, if it's
close to the roadway,yes. But if it's along in there, it'll be nice. You know,animal habitat we
want to be sensitive to that. We don't want to go overboard,to a couple of that kids.
They go through,this have to go through site plan review?
This whole thing is going through site plan review,yes.
There might be an opportunity,you know, since you ,considering how blooming access, and
stuff, it might be possible with judicious plantings of like,blackberry or raspberry, with big
thorns. (Laughter) Might actually be . .
Already.
( � M Yes.
There are some (can't hear)
And then it makes a densely vegetated,and only little critters can go in there.
We figured a natural reservoir.
Natural to leave the bed,to rip rap both sides of it and leave the natural bed stream that(sneeze)
during construction and for a short time after that,you're going to get some erosion just due to
disturbing that semi-compact the bed. Could you install jute mash into the bed and then lay your
rip rap down the sides, possibly giving yourself a year or so of staple stream bed in that area.
�� Well we're proposing some substantial rip rap on the banks.
43
4n the banks,but you said that the you wanted to try to retain the immediate stream ,but I
think that in the area of construction,that that's going to be you know removed as part of the
construction project and that, if you could install a some jute mash or something along those
lines to hold that bed until it got time to come back.
Well,jute mash is usually used like on slope protection or something, When we have that much
water going through I think what's going to happen is that it's going to it's natural elevation, it's
going to fill in naturally to where it wants to be and then it's just going to stop. And I think if
Ot4makkR depressed the culvert down,like we're talking about,about eight inches, it's going to fill into the
natural elevation on either side, it's going to stop. That's what it's going to fill to,it's going to
stop at that point. That's normally what happens. Nature has a way of going back to where it
was. Um,and that was one of the things,actually,DEP,that was the biggest concern of the DEP
is that what the bottom was going to be.
Right.
u�u When we worked with that,talked to him,. . .
Just going along the lines of trying to speed that process along,and stabilizing it during
construction rather than increasing the use of silt fence, stream and so on.
That's the reason we have that stone sediment berm. Is really to slow an sediment that washes
Y Y
through, what it does is it slows it down. It filters it out and it deposits it. So what happens is
from that point back it starts to deposit that through the culvert. Once it starts to stabilize,then
you remove the stone then you have basically have a natural stream bed at that point, That's the
idea behind it.
What kind of a time frame do you feel would be necessary to leave that berm up after the stream
crossing would be established. So that everything stabilizes and you know gets an equilibrium.
I'd say probably,probably around a month, We'd probably do it,three weeks to a month. For
stabilization. That's going to be something that's probably going to be,you know, it's going to
be okay. You go out there and look at it,okay. Is it stable now, let's get the stone out of there.
Or we may say,well it's not quite stable let's throw some more stone in there. And help it along
a little bit. It's going to be I'd say probably three weeks to a month. That'd be my guess.
I guess I'd like to ask before we run is,did you consider any alternative to this crossing. Is there
a way that you could get a variance on the length of the cul-de-sac for instance,and you
wouldn't have . . .
66MVL� Oh,no variance or provision at all,
UA Uat:L Because it's a subdivision.
Subdivision regulation. 'There's not variances allowed.
44
What we did is quite frankly, when we first started looking at this,and we started looking and we
realized very early on,in a lot of early discussions that we were going to have a continuous
connection just for public safety. So we said,okay well where's the best area to look at. Is it
afAM" here,here,here along here. When we walked the site,we saw that there was an old crossing,
and some disturbance through there,there's remnants of some metal pipe. There's remnants of
concrete pipe. Pieces that were pieced together. Over the years they've come apart. Some of
them are still there. So we said well,it seems the most logical would be to put it where there
was some disturbance at one point in time. Hence that's the reason that we selected that spot.
Uh huh.
This here seems to be, from the south of that, seems to be more of a natural brook setting. More
undisturbed than that is.
That bridge has been washed out for fourteen years, over there.
Yeah,but I mean there's still remnants of
Isn't that brook south of the high school overgrown? With trees.
Yeah,there's a lot of vegetation.
Trees and shrubs.
So you can hardly see the water.
duw" Yeah it's all canopy over it and there's a lot of underscoring in the brook.
&M&ktA-e You have to clean that all up?
Cuum-" I'm(can't make out if he says proposing or opposing)it now,because that would actually . .
JAITA-
No.
tt41ut-� No.
IWe want him to leave it the way it is.
&AAt&� What I did is minimal allowed that we have to do. And that's it. In other words leave it alone.
CW,t4LaA& Because that would actually. . . (laughter)
as
Is there anyone else from the public who would like to comment on the application. Okay.
Anyone else on the commission before we I think continue the public hearing to next meeting.
Because we need engineering among other(tape change)
UkgA/lo- i1 Jack? No? Did you have anything else,no? Sony. Yes.
Jeff can you talk to them and look into whether or not there's any plantings in bio-engineering
4�4
that we can look at that might help the erosion problem around during those two weeks,
so maybe we have.
I'd be glad to,yeah.
Yeah.
(coughing)
Seventeenth the next meeting,
Yeah,what we'll do is we'll set something up with CRI
Yeah,we can you know,take a look at the site and. . ,
�i That could be a condition.
r
Sir are you defining that the continuance is just for those two items to get the Town Engineers
report and also those the additional plantings we might be able to do down the stream.
I don't think I want to necessarily narrow it to that. I think we'd like to have your environmental
impact.
Yeah. Chances are that's not going to be ready. . .
That's not going to be ready until toward the end of the month.
Well,I guess I have a very strong concern that we have to have some kind of conclusion that
aAA" there is no contamination to the watercourse. And I don't know how we can do that without
your reports.
Well you have control over the second application starts at the next meeting. That addresses the
entire overall site,you do have control over it at that point.
I mean because they wouldn't build the culvert if we didn't approve the rest of the site there
would be not point of it.
46
That's right. This won't happen. There won't be any culvert crossing unless the overall site is
approved by this commission and by Planning and Zoning.
� /� Yeah,right. Right. Um, well no,I think he's asking the question is if we're going to require the
tram"1" report before we close the public hearing they need to know that. I don't know, does the
commission have any,yes.
This application is for the impact of the culvert crossing, and that's all as far as I'm concerned.
And the gully area.
The gully rip rap.
Right,okay. So that we won't require their reports prior to the environmental impact reports.
No.
Jack?
You know I was going to say essentially the same thing. We've got the further applications for
the whole thing. Plus if we discover that there is impact,this commission is probably going to
be one of the least of their worries. And we're mediating the site. (Laughter).
Uh huh. Okay,everyone's in agreement,then. Okay. So I guess you have you're answer. Just
those issues to be addressed at the next.
Thank you and we'll work with Jeff on that area.
Okay. Do we have any other. Nope. Guess not. Thank you very much.
Okay. Regular meeting.
g